tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post8899887644525200258..comments2023-10-07T12:15:50.446+01:00Comments on The Centre Left: The battle for Labour’s past: you are all rightRob Marchanthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11534810369839848312noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-21234495290487857742011-01-17T14:23:17.293+00:002011-01-17T14:23:17.293+00:00James, ok will take a look.
Richard, think I have...James, ok will take a look.<br /><br />Richard, think I have to disagree on Labour being no different from the Tories under Blair and Brown. And also on the Lib Dems - they are a divided party with no clear overall direction, and if the Coalition has proved one thing it is that it has killed the idea that they are more left than Labour. <br /><br />Across Europe the left is - on the contrary - on the back foot, rather than having increased demand for left policies. That is not to say we shouldn't pursue a left agenda, just to be realistic about what the public will and will not accept (see my post here "End of a decade"). I see it as a challenge for us to seize the agenda and fight for an alternative to the awful present government.Rob Marchanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11534810369839848312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-2617814505618667622011-01-16T08:16:24.700+00:002011-01-16T08:16:24.700+00:00Rob -If you mean by your assertion that the public...Rob -If you mean by your assertion that the public does not want left wing policies you mean the public had become more selfish and self centred you are right,they had-thanks mostly to the indoctrination of Thatcher and her private ownership principles- and that socialism in the UK was dead then I would have agreed with you, at least at one time -indeed that's how Blairites managed to get the Labour party elected in '97 by swiftly converting it into a second Tory party of the centre right with largely Tory policy..the electorate too stupid to realize the confidence trick being played on them but desperate for any change from Thatcherism no matter what.<br />For the most part the Liberal Dem' party occupied the left at least far more left wing than New Labour - a sizeable number of voters at that- yet denied proper representation by the electoral system.<br />Voters across the EU had become more right wing altogether, since 1980.<br />However, I do not think this will last and as things degenerate -which they will- undoubtedly demand for left wing policy will revive, as it is already right across Europe and undoubtedly more polarization to the Right too.<br />The British people may not want full blown socialism, Chinese style- who does? but it is clear a sizeable number of Labour party supporters want more traditional Labour social policy as do a majority of the LibDems, who are now at odds with and disaffected by their leadership.<br />People have palpably become more socially aware and less selfish in their attitude, more conscious of environmental issues and a huge disgust with capitalism,globalization and industrialist corporate indifference.The people of the UK and other EU countries are voicing great anger at the tearing apart of publicly owned bodies and state institutions which are being replaced by private ownership entities and this anger does not simply extend to a few militants on the left its a far more widespread base and to ignore that is to the party's peril.<br />But, I guess what ones perceptions of what the electorate wants is largely subjective and influenced by ones own social circles.<br />I think the Labour Party members-just as much as the LibDem party members- are patently aware their respective leaderships policies are poles apart from their own memberships policies and ideals.<br />Certainly from a personal level,the dominance of politics of the right irrespective of party is the main reason I am leaving England.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14559063553450136504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-46801071743671117772011-01-16T08:11:39.500+00:002011-01-16T08:11:39.500+00:00Rob -If you mean by your assertion that the public...Rob -If you mean by your assertion that the public does not want left wing policies you mean the public had become more selfish and self centred you are right,they had-thanks mostly to the indoctrination of Thatcher and her private ownership principles- and that socialism in the UK was dead then I would have agreed with you, at least at one time -indeed that's how Blairites managed to get the Labour party elected in '97 by swiftly converting it into a second Tory party of the centre right with largely Tory policy..the electorate too stupid to realize the confidence trick being played on them but desperate for any change from Thatcherism no matter what.<br />For the most part the Liberal Dem' party occupied the left at least far more left wing than New Labour - a sizeable number of voters at that- yet denied proper representation by the electoral system.<br />Voters across the EU had become more right wing altogether, since 1980.<br />However, I do not think this will last and as things degenerate -which they will- undoubtedly demand for left wing policy will revive, as it is already right across Europe and undoubtedly more polarization to the Right too.<br />The British people may not want full blown socialism, Chinese style- who does? but it is clear a sizeable number of Labour party supporters want more traditional Labour social policy as do a majority of the LibDems, who are now at odds with and disaffected by their leadership.<br />People have palpably become more socially aware and less selfish in their attitude, more conscious of environmental issues and a huge disgust with capitalism,globalization and industrialist corporate indifference.The people of the UK and other EU countries are voicing great anger at the tearing apart of publicly owned bodies and state institutions which are being replaced by private ownership entities and this anger does not simply extend to a few militants on the left its a far more widespread base and to ignore that is to the party's peril.<br />But, I guess what ones perceptions of what the electorate wants is largely subjective and influenced by ones own social circles.<br />I think the Labour Party members-just as much as the LibDem party members- are patently aware their respective leaderships policies are poles apart from their own memberships policies and ideals.<br />Certainly from a personal level,the dominance of politics of the right irrespective of party is the main reason I am leaving England.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14559063553450136504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-25273854164826888692011-01-16T00:14:05.540+00:002011-01-16T00:14:05.540+00:00Hutton is chairing the Ownership Commission which ...Hutton is chairing the Ownership Commission which was set up last year to look at how co-operative enterprise could be promoted across the economy, something welcomed at the time by Labour's cabinet office minister Tessa Jowell. Should be a good challenge to the coalition's thinking, especially with regards the future of UKFI's holding in various banks.<br /><br />Of interest is a new ebook, Revisiting Associative Democracy, which has interesting chapters on industrial policy and capital markets: http://www.lwbooks.co.uk/ebooks/RevisitingAssociativeDemocracy.pdfAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11443724356434212172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-77156002277890417332011-01-14T11:49:10.454+00:002011-01-14T11:49:10.454+00:00James, that really is an excellent article - I hav...James, that really is an excellent article - I haven't read Will Hutton since "The State We're In" years ago, and I should. I am fully convinced that we don't have good ownership, although I might quibble that tinkering ownership laws might not necessarily be the key. I think we need to change the culture among investors to make them not accept finance-only objectives, and to insist on turning up and hassling the board at AGMs about good governance and, in relevant companies like BAA or utilities, the public interest. Frankly this is good business sense as well as in the public interest, not just to look at short-term returns.<br /><br />My old boss at the Labour Party, David Pitt-Watson, was involved in the Co-op Commission and works for Hermes, which is big on ethical investment and shareholder activism.<br />http://www.hermes.co.uk/ I think there could be a decent way forward on this area even without changing our company structures too much.<br /><br />Anyway, thanks very much for the article.Rob Marchanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11534810369839848312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-75692064897636529952011-01-14T11:23:32.435+00:002011-01-14T11:23:32.435+00:00Richard, I think you misinterpret me. I did not s...Richard, I think you misinterpret me. I did not say Blair and Brown were irresponsible. However, I did say that Brown made one strategic error on running a deficit, although it was probably his only major error on the economy in 13 years - not a bad record for a politician. I also think we should NOT continue the Blair/Brown who was right or wrong debate and should stop beating ourselves up about these things, which only helps the Tories.<br /><br />I also agree with you that the evidence that Labour was wasteful is scant and this is mostly rather silly Tory propaganda.<br /><br />You may be right about the Civil Service not providing accurate information, but I think there is no doubt that Brown actually wanted to run a deficit - it was not an accident.<br /><br />Where I can't agree with you is that Labour should move to the left - it's abundantly clear that's not what the public wants. Also, on taking China as a model - well, it has grown massively mainly because it was coming from such a terribly low base. It has grown in spite of its communism rather than because of it, and it is still basically a totalitarian state, which I don't feel we should aspire to!Rob Marchanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11534810369839848312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-82635525246727983312011-01-14T06:56:55.982+00:002011-01-14T06:56:55.982+00:00For the record I do not like New Labour principles...For the record I do not like New Labour principles, I am on the extreme left but I am happy to credit much of the growth and modernization of this country to the efforts of Brown and Blairs Labour and much much more could have been done had they had the bravery to do it and they could have taken the policies much further to the left too instead of worrying what the Tories might say about them.<br /><br />Socialism is the only way any country can have a thriving economy AND the massive state investment and 'bigger picture' vision and planning necessary to develop free public services and infra structure for everyone of its citizens.The Chinese may have their faults and problems but socialist/marxist principles in partnership with private companies has transformed that country. <br /> <br />The US capitalist model with 'hands off' government proves itself a failure time and again and what has brought us to this recession now, yet the Tory's and other EU countries have adopted this model....duh!<br /><br />New Labour departed from it socialist values but was nevertheless successful on the whole. From my perspective Labour seems to have now gone back into the self destructive highly self absorbed blame culture of the Foot/Kinnock years.<br />What is patently obvious is Labour has lost its core socialist principles at the top,lost its direction and lost sight of effectively dealing with the real enemy- the Condem's<br /><br />If some members of Labour wish to follow a Tory style agenda of cuts and privatization of public services and curbing realistic vision with the attitude of a depressed defeatist accountant then they would be best served joining the scum in Tory party and leave the rest of us to rebuild a proper Socialist Labour Party that cares for and works with, ALL of its citizens not just a small proportion of them.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14559063553450136504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-19633434628197573122011-01-14T05:29:54.974+00:002011-01-14T05:29:54.974+00:00Rob-Firstly,the e-mail I sent was to you Personall...Rob-Firstly,the e-mail I sent was to you Personally and not this blog and I did so for two reasons <br />1)I am fed up of seeing long play arguments on whose fault the failure of Labour was that serve no purpose and did not wish to contribute to that.<br />2)You yourself are one of the persons contributing to the sense that Labour or Blair/Brown were irresponsible in their spending - you said as much above- and that this only became a problem when the recession broke. <br />Whilst I accept that there has been some waste in spending mostly down to poor accountability of numerous departments I do not believe they were irresponsible in spending money were it was and is needed.<br /><br />It seems quite unbelievably miraculous that now under the Tories those same civil service departments can trot out lists of sheer wastage and inefficiencies their departments have been carrying on for years- in some cases decades- when they could or would not speak of them under Labour's tenure.<br />Whilst the Cabinet and PM share responsibility for the overspend- if that's what people wish to call it-they can not make accurate spending judgments if they are themselves being lied to or misled by the self serving civil servants who enjoy protecting their own little empires within the spending budgets allowed their departments.<br />Having worked in the civil service in the past I know how they work and very often do anything they can including clever budgetary accounting to disguise they are actually way in surplus of spending and how good their house keeping is to be rewarded with promotion or make out they are hard up and struggling with factors 'outside their control' to attract more income into their budget when the opposite is true.Clever accountants are not just present in the private sector. <br />Had the finances not become so dire as a result of the recession many of the unpopular decisions like privatizing the search and rescue service cutting the coast guard,NHS changes etc would not have been set into play by Labour and followed through by the present Government.<br />The blame for that recession lies firmly in the banks of the finance sector the blame for overspending lies with the civil service mandarins who have misled politicians for decades.<br />I am sick to death of hearing Tory garbage about the wastefulness of Labour and even more sick of so called Labour supporters repeating the same garbage.<br />This country needs strong directional government and serious government investment and has for the most part got that in the labour years and repaired much of the disasterous underinvestment and cutting in infrastructure of the last Tory administration and has a good record in rebuilding Britain tarnished only by the exceptions of the Iraq/Afghanistan fiasco's and the gradual adoption of Tory policies in some areas.<br /><br />The Tory elite and their industrialist mates- just like the US Republicans - are happy to ship jobs and wealth over sea's to China while at home blaming everyone- including the genuinely ill and disabled- for the nations recession and for being lazy idle workshy benefit scroungers and cutting to the bone every public service there is.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14559063553450136504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-22979851892670618372011-01-14T02:17:42.597+00:002011-01-14T02:17:42.597+00:00That Hutton article: http://ownershipcomm.org/news...That Hutton article: http://ownershipcomm.org/news/2010/12/29/will-hutton-we-have-the-oddest-and-most-regressive-constitution-/Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11443724356434212172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-67439466762225777582011-01-13T10:47:51.966+00:002011-01-13T10:47:51.966+00:00Richard, firstly I'm not so much wanting to di...Richard, firstly I'm not so much wanting to discuss the reason's for Labour's electoral failure (a very long conversation indeed) but <br /><br />I agree with you that the light banking regulation was a large cause of the problem. It's something I've experienced first-hand, as once upon a time I used to work in this sector.<br /><br />Where I think we differ is that I believe Gordon did go spending money we didn't have, which normally would not be a big deal, but when you have a sudden financial crisis, it is.<br /><br />I agree with you (indeed say so in the article) that we should stop playing the Tories' game - I understand how people in the Party might attack Labour from the left, this is only natural, but when our policies are already centrist, it is not sensible for us to attack Blair/Brown from the right. We then just do the Tories' work for them.Rob Marchanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11534810369839848312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-51754633580672511262011-01-13T10:36:33.661+00:002011-01-13T10:36:33.661+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.Rob Marchanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11534810369839848312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-86372491328925372912011-01-13T10:36:00.355+00:002011-01-13T10:36:00.355+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.Rob Marchanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11534810369839848312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-70973321677130949682011-01-13T10:35:48.382+00:002011-01-13T10:35:48.382+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.Rob Marchanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11534810369839848312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-16194623646633580832011-01-13T10:34:23.625+00:002011-01-13T10:34:23.625+00:00That's ok. No, haven't seen Will Hutton&#...That's ok. No, haven't seen Will Hutton's article, do you want to post the link?<br /><br />And you are quite right about the nit-picking, I must admit I thought there was an ultimate accountability to Government but, having checked, it goes to Parliament. Although to be REALLY picky, technically the Government can intervene temporarily in cases of emergency, so it's not 100%.<br /><br />Bloody great Labour achievement, that.Rob Marchanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11534810369839848312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-41703797790324954672011-01-12T21:58:19.719+00:002011-01-12T21:58:19.719+00:00Rob, what's wrong with capital accumulation pe...Rob, what's wrong with capital accumulation per se? Well, nothing so long as it is sustainable and all those contributing are justly rewarded.<br /><br />I suppose you read Will Hutton's recent article about the constitution of the firm in the UK with regards BAA and Ferrovial? That's basically what I'm getting at.<br /><br />I suppose what I wrote seems a bit grumpy. Sorry about that. A bit of nit-picking - the UK government no longer manages interest rates.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11443724356434212172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-32318681267726605302011-01-12T16:41:38.714+00:002011-01-12T16:41:38.714+00:00John, I think you may be right that sometimes we c...John, I think you may be right that sometimes we could be accused of talking to ourselves rather than the world outside. <br /><br />Anyway, tomorrow you'll be able to see my post on LabourUncut which makes, I hope, some constructive criticism on the woollier aspects of thought within the party, also how far we should reach out to the Lib Dems.Rob Marchanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11534810369839848312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-22218730235600181392011-01-12T16:18:38.928+00:002011-01-12T16:18:38.928+00:00This is not really about the economy but,
I accept...This is not really about the economy but,<br />I accept the strategy was to get the 2m former Labour voters back who left us for the Lib dem at 2001,and that in having Ed as a leader, must have resulted ion some coming back and that it is good they are<br /><br />Some who joined us Laurie penny Sunny Hundal, Darrell goodliffe,obviously want to swing labour far to the left <br /><br />On the other hand the right of the party has never been so strong, Luke akehurst,Peter watt harry aldridge, Hopi sen, <br />When the Daily mail launched a scathing a ttack on labour after the 2005 election,it didn't effect the opinion polls at the time<br /><br />I also accept that some who are defending police action now like working class tory,were't during the fox hunt protests,<br /><br />And are more critical of the loony left that the Mail criticising labour 5yrs ago. <br /><br />They were silent then as they saw the police used against their friends the fox hunters <br />Since the left forced the SDP from labour in the 80's those who remember the Looney left, and don't want them back now ,may want to take action<br /><br />As they see the hatred ,the loony left had for Owen and co. <br />So are taking revenge now, Guido takes joy in this and the rise of these loonies as he is getting more coverage than labour who on labour list appear to be talking to themselves<br /><br />At the same time some labour members frank field <br />Jon Hutton are writing reports fo rthe tories ,IT was like the person who said We've got our party back , as if ,he wanted to go back to when we lost elections,<br /><br />Look at the Guardain comment is free, theres alot more pro police bloggers now, rather than those who said the IRA were freedom fighters ,etc.johnpaulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03978755044345580501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-54389867638385803382011-01-12T14:15:40.674+00:002011-01-12T14:15:40.674+00:00Afraid I couldn't disagree with you more - giv...Afraid I couldn't disagree with you more - given that governments are absolutely responsible for managing interest rates, the whole taxation system, public spending and public investment (about half the economy), they can and should be held responsible when things go wrong, if those things can be shown to be their fault. In this case, as Anthony Painter argues, we did not drive recklessly but we did drive without insurance. We were running a deficit long before the financial crash.<br /><br />Btw what is wrong with capital accumulation per se?Rob Marchanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11534810369839848312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-38329053723625699182011-01-12T07:42:38.709+00:002011-01-12T07:42:38.709+00:00I find these arguments about "the economy&quo...I find these arguments about "the economy" a bit odd. Because much of the economy is beyond the direct control of Labour governments, so what we're really talking about is public finances. They too are also beyond the control of Labour governments - running a deficit is a response to the periodic fuck-ups which are beyond the control of elected governments. The Tories do it when they are in office.<br /><br />The real economic mistake was both Brownite and Blairite - that Labour's abandonment of a critique of capital accumulation was okay, because the house of cards would never collapse.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11443724356434212172noreply@blogger.com