tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post8812151013002229975..comments2023-10-07T12:15:50.446+01:00Comments on The Centre Left: Observations on "A Journey" II: school segregationRob Marchanthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11534810369839848312noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-56610210262333744992011-05-28T14:40:02.427+01:002011-05-28T14:40:02.427+01:00That's an interesting thought. Andrew, I absol...That's an interesting thought. Andrew, I absolutely defer to your superior knowledge of schools. <br /><br />However, what it leaves me with is this, if you'll forgive me: school can at best do part of the job of integration. So let's make it worse, not better, by making sure kids never even *meet* other kids outside their faith/culture until they're adults.<br /><br />That doesn't make sense to me: because you can't do the whole job, don't try and do any of it. And even if schools are not great integration incubators, surely the seeds of tolerance and acceptance are sown at that age (like just about every other seed)?<br /><br />Or not?Rob Marchanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11534810369839848312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-74208222493472734322011-05-28T10:30:11.347+01:002011-05-28T10:30:11.347+01:00"What I would ask you is, if kids don't g..."What I would ask you is, if kids don't get the chance to integrate in their schooldays, when will they?"<br /><br />Throughout their lives. Most workplaces are (by law) more tolerant and integrated than most schools. Proximity is not integration nor acceptance, and nowhere is this more obvious than among schoolchildren.oldandrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754487569367573087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-38657131011819963262011-05-27T18:22:00.632+01:002011-05-27T18:22:00.632+01:00@Andrew:
I wouldn't necessarily say schools a...@Andrew:<br /><br />I wouldn't necessarily say schools are the perfect vehicle for integration (after all, they are primarily about teaching kids, this is a by-product). But I do think they help, especially in the inner cities. <br /><br />What I would ask you is, if kids don't get the chance to integrate in their schooldays, when will they?Rob Marchanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11534810369839848312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-19837235102793864622011-05-27T17:22:15.933+01:002011-05-27T17:22:15.933+01:00Experience as a teacher has made me very sceptical...Experience as a teacher has made me very sceptical of the idea that schools are good at integrating different cultures. Schools are not microcosms ripe for convenient social-engineering which can then spread out into a wider society. Children are actually worse than adults for resenting those who are different, not some kind of vanguard for tolerance.oldandrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754487569367573087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-27152373813243565222011-05-26T12:41:47.798+01:002011-05-26T12:41:47.798+01:00@Conor: It is indeed. For a Tory ;)
@Ciaran: I...@Conor: It is indeed. For a Tory ;)<br /><br />@Ciaran: I'm afraid so. In fact, he reaffirmed it last night as well.Rob Marchanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11534810369839848312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-35087062545914627382011-05-26T11:27:41.484+01:002011-05-26T11:27:41.484+01:00Blairsupporter? "You cannot be serious" ...Blairsupporter? "You cannot be serious" (copyright John McEnroe).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-69563187380683816522011-05-26T09:28:14.845+01:002011-05-26T09:28:14.845+01:00I love "immigration is won or lost in the pla...I love "immigration is won or lost in the playground". Very powerful sentence.Conor Neillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01158441852895515829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-70057884791573210792011-05-26T08:22:43.264+01:002011-05-26T08:22:43.264+01:00@Antigone, as I say, I think it's much less of...@Antigone, as I say, I think it's much less of an issue with Catholic schools because there are much lower cultural barriers to break down (although, let's face it, there are still even parts of the UK with significant Protestant/Catholic segregation). So a religious difference does not, on the whole, need to become a cultural disconnect. <br /><br />I am sure you have lived an entirely integrated life, as most British Catholics do, I'd say. <br /><br />And there may well be many Muslims who, despite being brought up in an overwhelmingly Muslim community and attending a faith school, manage to integrate well by other means. But why do we have to make it increasingly, rather than decreasingly, difficult for them to do so?<br /><br />For me one of the joys and great strengths of the British state system has always been the way everyone of different faiths and cultures is lumped in together, and are forced to confront their apprehensiveness of one another and work out their differences. <br /><br />I believe, simply, that we're moving away from that, which is a great shame.Rob Marchanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11534810369839848312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-38346270910146071022011-05-26T01:21:55.642+01:002011-05-26T01:21:55.642+01:00I'm not certain I met many non-catholics befor...I'm not certain I met many non-catholics before I was 16 but it didn;t prevent me spending my adult life happily integrated and, i hope,tolerant of the very great majority around me who do not remotely share my views.antigonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08197201602123598102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-59031961717801204602011-05-25T23:45:04.630+01:002011-05-25T23:45:04.630+01:00Antigone, firstly while I appreciate your defence,...Antigone, firstly while I appreciate your defence, I object a little to your ad hominems: "people who do not have faith or are not part of a faith community fundamentally do not grasp..." you are making something of an assumption. I grasp the need, but I am not sure it is good for society in some forms. I worry that religious people take any measure to regulate or change as an attack on their faith, when it is not. It is surely irrelevant what my beliefs or non-beliefs are, or yours, so long as we respect each others'.<br /><br />As I just tweeted to blairsupporter, I actually took out a para which said I think the issue is much less for Christian faith schools than for non-Christian, for the simple reason that it is less likely that they might cause a cultural, as well as a religious separation. With an Islamic, Hindu, Sikh or Orthodox Jewish school, for example, I'd say it's a little more likely. However, the problem is that you can't really differentiate in legislation, that would be wrong as well as politically divisive.<br /><br />This is not about regulation, by the way, it's about ensuring that integration between races and cultures, more than religions per se, happens in the playground. As, indeed, it did perfectly well in many faith and non-faith schools in my day and yours. I think the changes made over recent years are a change away from that, and Gove's are the icing on the cake. It cannot be good that a Muslim child, for example, can spend his entire school day, and quite easily his home life as well, without coming across a teacher nor a peer who is non-Muslim. That, yes, is a threat to community cohesion.Rob Marchanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11534810369839848312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-66878983881449026592011-05-25T23:26:14.116+01:002011-05-25T23:26:14.116+01:00The trouble with this debate is that people who do...The trouble with this debate is that people who do not have faith or are not part of a faith community fundamentally do not grasp what it is about faith schools that is important to people who want to bring up their children with at least an option of understanding what it is to have faith. <br />I am a catholic. I went to a catholic school. I want my daughter to do so - yes despite sharing many of the views of critics of the church about its shortcomings. And despite experiencing at first hand the damage sectarianism (but not necessarily segregation) can still still cause in my home city of Glasgow.<br />If you believe in a religion it is not enough to be taught about it as an academic or historical exercise alongside other religions in a context that simply grades them dispassionately. You want to celebrate its festivals - not as a fun bit of kitsch as everything from Eid to Easter are now marked at many schools but with the solemnity and dignity they are accorded by the adherrents of that faith. <br /><br />Certainly you want your children to understand the cutural and maybe political context in which their faith operates but you also want them to understand what its followers believe in, why and how strongly those bonds are felt. Quite simply a faith school is a place that allows you to be part of your faith, to learn about it and have your beliefs upheld and respected and not to feel a social oddity. As a parent you want to create the space where a child can experience their religion and grow into it (or out of it) as a normal and accepted part of their every day life. <br /><br />When I was at school we had a saint for every day of the week to guide us and show us good examples of one sort or another. Given our age schools tend to select wholesome non-controversial saints (all the more so today than 40 years ago). We prayed before school each day, for help to concentrate in our studies, for compassion and tolerence towards others (and particularly those who did not share our belief) and the knowledge of those less fortunate than ourselves was never far from our consciousness.<br /><br />Ah, you will say, any good school can pull out role models and run thoughtful and thought provoking assemblies and that's true but i don't see why a tolerant and cohesive and confident society cannot have more confidence in its citizens without needing to regulate every area of their lives. Faith schools are not a threat to community cohesion. But the fear that society is becoming less tolerent of those who are felt not to conform to rigid secular norms dictated by a middle class secular elite certainly is.antigonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08197201602123598102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-86951680724229246922011-05-25T20:59:02.112+01:002011-05-25T20:59:02.112+01:00As it happens you're wrong - on faith schools ...As it happens you're wrong - on faith schools and Michael Gove he actually agrees with me: check this link out. <a href="http://twitter.com/#!/JohnRentoul/status/39685193832865792" rel="nofollow">this</a>Rob Marchanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11534810369839848312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-59899541636273059652011-05-25T19:31:26.582+01:002011-05-25T19:31:26.582+01:00Whatever you do, don't tell John Rentoul who b...Whatever you do, don't tell John Rentoul who believes in St Tone.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com