tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post7596082747779659500..comments2023-10-07T12:15:50.446+01:00Comments on The Centre Left: The right Miliband?Rob Marchanthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11534810369839848312noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-5363065508644533902010-10-21T12:38:46.764+01:002010-10-21T12:38:46.764+01:00"But the "many" of the 21st century..."But the "many" of the 21st century are not content to fit into the simple "capital" and "labour" labels of our friend Karl"<br /><br />Or our old friend Adam (Smith), or any of the other classical economists... The British Social Attitudes survey in 2005 found a 57%/37% working/middle class split in terms of self-identification. There's been a decline, for sure, but surprisingly little, it would seem.<br /><br />"They are more affluent, want and aspire to capital of their own - nothing wrong with that"<br /><br />Sure, there's nothing wrong with that, I want that too - I'd also like super-powers, but it's not likely to happen ;-). Robert B. Freeman points out that the capital/labour has shifted to the benefit of capital with the opening of China, India, and Central and Eastern Europe (http://www.theglobalist.com/storyid.aspx?StoryId=4542).Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11443724356434212172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-45130518520711748922010-10-21T11:46:22.753+01:002010-10-21T11:46:22.753+01:00Well, people do depend upon their labour, yes, as ...Well, people do depend upon their labour, yes, as they always have and always will. But the "many" of the 21st century are not content to fit into the simple "capital" and "labour" labels of our friend Karl. They are more affluent, want and aspire to capital of their own - nothing wrong with that. And they, let's not forget, are the people we need to win over. <br /><br />In many cases, last generation's aspirational working class is this generation's middle class - there are just not as many people who consider themselves working class any more (there are statistical surveys showing this, by the way). That's what I mean by reduced size".<br /><br />Finally I'm with you on fairer/ethical business. But neither are all businesspeople (or capitalists, as you might call them), who don't adhere to this way of thinking, bad. They just need to be educated.Rob Marchanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11534810369839848312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-69295272513214513992010-10-08T16:45:20.193+01:002010-10-08T16:45:20.193+01:00I don't understand what you mean by "redu...I don't understand what you mean by "reduced size". Before the recession, we had the largest number of people in paid employment on record.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11443724356434212172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-43266163785292638412010-10-04T22:49:17.639+01:002010-10-04T22:49:17.639+01:00Though the electorate is much more complex, the na...Though the electorate is much more complex, the nature of people's existence is as it ever was - most people depend upon their labour for an earned income. A capitalist economy is structured for capital accumulation - the "ruling capitalist class" are those people who are actual capitalists. I think there's an alternative: http://ownershipcomm.org/issues/ownership-entrepreneurship-and-business/funding-the-future-of-capitalism/<br /><br />Sadly for David, the fact that such individuals were backing him led to suspicions about what deal he had done or if he really could make a shift to "Next Labour"... As I always say about TU funding for Labour, it's an insurance policy. More important than the funding of TU members is their participation in our party, helping us to canvass and campaign in the seats we need to win at the next election.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11443724356434212172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-81798556696235487272010-10-04T09:22:49.689+01:002010-10-04T09:22:49.689+01:00James, I have indeed followed the thinking within ...James, I have indeed followed the thinking within the union movement. I think that union members largely voted on the basis of their own thoughts about the candidates, which is as it should be. But we are talking about the union leadership here, which gave explicit support to candidates, as they are entitled to do (and, in some cases, actually sent their recommendation to members with ballot papers, something that in a government or even a Party election would never be tolerated). My point is merely that there must have been a deal - there always is.<br /><br />Re the many, not the few, I'm with you all the way, that's why I'm a member of the Party. But we must also be careful - your argument seems to equate union members = party members = all working people = "labour". We are dealing with a complex 21st Century electorate with an enormous middle class and a reduced size working class. And a lot of the last category doesn't even vote for us. I'd be careful about the "ruling capitalist class" as well if you mean rthe the supporters of those who run the country, some of them voted Lib Dem and got an unexpected result...Rob Marchanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11534810369839848312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-63965048036134870122010-10-02T23:25:58.840+01:002010-10-02T23:25:58.840+01:00Rob, I don't know how much you've been fol...Rob, I don't know how much you've been following the debates during the leadership contest, or the thinking within the trade union movement which led to overwhelming support for Ed M over his brother.<br /><br />To many people who had votes as affiliates but not as party members that I spoke to, Ed's appeal was largely on the basis that he offered humility and honesty on issues of trust.<br /><br />As to who drives policy, you miss out the other main player - the ruling capitalist class. It is the interests of the many, not the few, which must inform policy and positioning.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11443724356434212172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-64141897127008038582010-10-02T10:48:27.901+01:002010-10-02T10:48:27.901+01:00I hope you're right and it's just that...w...I hope you're right and it's just that...we'll know soon I guess. The Leader must drive policy, not the unions.Rob Marchanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11534810369839848312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7741861999194728080.post-9639700871885062092010-09-28T20:17:45.699+01:002010-09-28T20:17:45.699+01:00Re: "deliver openly on whatever deal he made&...Re: "deliver openly on whatever deal he made"<br /><br />I think the deal was the distance from the past. Just as TU funding for Labour has become an insurance policy rather than a guarantee of improved conditions for labour, I think there was something similar going on in TU members voting for him over his brother.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11443724356434212172noreply@blogger.com